clifford schorer winslow homer

And the market was not very discerning, because there were enough people in it to absorb all that material. I wasyou know, I was very much on my own. You talk to them about business; you talk to them about family. It was just books on subjects that interested me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So you've gotyou can put them side by side. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of walls in this house. But I did bring in a decorator. JUDITH RICHARDS: and what it stood for. But it hammered down; I lost it, you know, and thought no more of it. So, yeah. I remember it was very celebrated. So I bought the picture, took it to the Worcester Art Museum. I had a great time with that and didn't think it would go any further than that, and then the Agnew's thing occurred. And I was just, you know, I was a rebel. But for me, it's the combination of the conception and the craft, so the conception is very important to me; knowing that [Guido] Reni stole his figure from the Apollo Belvedere because it was here when he was there is interesting to me and Iyou know, to find that out, if I didn't know it before, either by accident or by some kind person sharing it with me, I'myou know, it adds a layer to my experience of the art that's different from my aesthetic experience of the art. You know, it was wonderful. Taste-making is a very difficult game, and, you know, obviously, we're outgunned by Vogue magazine, all the way down toyou know, Cond Nast Publications to, you know, you name itto Sotheby's. I'll look it up afterwards. I didn't. JUDITH RICHARDS: This sort of opens the whole question of the relationship between collectors and institutions and their collections and how much of a collectionit happens more in contemporary art, but issues arise. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There are otherthere are other areas that I'm interested in, and I put money into them, but they're not, sort of, simple collecting. He was born and raised in the Cambridge area, Boston, MA, and the first work he did in the field of art, was working as a print maker, in Boston, as well as in New York, which he eventually made his home in 1859. . Located in the Donald W. Reynolds Center for American Art and Portraiture (8th and F Streets NW), Size: 5 sound files (3 hr., 57 min.) I'm projecting, you know, my sort of personal loves onto things that I'm helping the gallery find, and I'm not taking psychological possession. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, again, that's a collecting area that was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915. Sometimes they're inverted, but almost universally they're. JUDITH RICHARDS: An investor rather than a conductor. I was traveling a lot. It's a very modern issue, because, historically, the American museum was created by private collections. I mean, I would say weI didn'tI always thought of it as a bit of a battlefield rather than a camaraderie. And you know, there's no way I'm ever going to get it back. You know, back then, and they've done a very efficient job of hoovering up the things that, you know, are the greatest examples, and obviously Peter Finer is a phenomenal dealer of arms and armor. Winslow Homer (1836 - 1910) was a remarkable American painter who mastered several mediums, including oils and watercolors. And at that moment, I decided this marketplace is basically like a rigged stock exchange. I know there were a number of scholars who figured this out, but those source documentssome of them still remained in that apartment in Madrid, so there was fresh scholarship here. And I know them, and I know the pictures, and I won't say more than that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, I thought it was great, yes. [00:26:00] And not only the real deal, but it was the genesis of seven other copies that have all been variously considered either by van Dyck or byyou know, one is in Hampton Court; one is in the Hermitage. It was justmy grandfather would look at something and understand intrinsically what it needed to do, and what the tolerances needed to be. As a young man, he was apprenticed to a commercial lithographer for two years before becoming a freelance illustrator in 1857. Or you were philosophically opposed to it? So that'syou know, the reality is though, that that painting will never come my way, so I have toto go back to this question, has my philosophy about this changed in the course of it? He said, "Well, we'll make you a Corporator." CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was Sotheby's New York. JUDITH RICHARDS: When those things happen, are youbuyers at auction aren't identified. Yeah, and, of course, you know, if you think about return on equity, and you're in the business world, you understand that with the inventory turn of a gallery being as slow as it is, buying something and hanging it on the wall is often a very bad business decision. JUDITH RICHARDS: Where does that take place? CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. And I would buy all kinds of crazy things. You could buy things in Europe and sort of do your best to get them home. So I do have some sculptures in there. As you say, this aesthetic experience or, you know, the cultivation of the eye or a satisfaction of the eye. That was one thing. I mean, it was, you know, sort ofand I think the problem was that he didn't have a lot ofnot even art enthusiasts; they just didn't havethey didn't have the depth of art knowledge they needed on the board at that particular moment. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So the piece was mine, in my collection, and it's named after my grandfather. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that's fair. You know, if it rises to that levelI mean, there's an old joke about the museum world is nothing but one big conflict of interest. And I left and I started the company. They didn't have any more endowment. So that would be '83? There are some institutions now that are speaking to me about things that they've borrowed that they really feel have become integral to their hang, and they want to keep them, and so that's a harder conversation, because, A, I may not be at the point where I want to sell the work, or, B, it may not make any sense from a tax standpoint, because I have given quite a bit, so I don't have much deductibility. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I think that, in a wayyou know, buying the Cezanne, for example; that's not a picture I would buy for my own collection, but it's a wonderful picture to tell an important art historical story, that if Agnew's can tell it really well, then someone may respond and want the Cezanne, or someone may simply want the Cezanne because they want the Cezanne. JUDITH RICHARDS: When youin those early years, did you have a goal? I mean, I think you'll see. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he was keeping up with you. No question about that. I think George is the kind of old-school collector, where art consumes probably 45 percent of his brain [they laugh], as opposed to everybody else that I know, where it's 10 or 15 percent. And most of our manuals were in Japanese, because the cash register manufacturers in those days were mostly Japanese. Eagle Head,Manchester, Massachusetts (High Tide), 1870 Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York City The Herring Net, 1885 Art Institute of Chicago Winslow Homer is undoubtedly one of the foremost artists of the United States in the 19th century. Without having someone who could actually be front and center, running the business, I would not have purchased the company. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And he lived quite a bit after that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And it was incredible. And I went down there to go to my old cube [laughs], and it was still there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I remember going there. But, you know, the other trip that really comes to mind recentlyand, again, it's in a totally unrelated field. And not being so much in business? [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm trying to think what I'veno, what I've done is, which is interesting, is I've sort of done that kind of thing your psychiatrist advises you to do, which is I'm projecting. They were contemporary dealers. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And it may get burned, and it may also have little to no attention paid to it, because it may be lost in a sea of other things, and this exciting story we have to tell about your picture will be utterly lost. I rememberI remember in those days the things that I brought on Pan Amoh, my God. We just have a little more time today perhaps, if you want to take more time? So those. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm trying to think who else. It was not in the market; it was in an institution. [00:20:00], So I'm looking at it, I'm looking at it, and I'm reading the label, and the label says it's King Seuthes III of 740 BC or something. There are a lot of areas that are uncontrolled in the museum, like all the antiquities are in areas that are uncontrolled. It was a stepping stone. Investments. [00:56:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do like art storage and handling. Winslow Homer was an American landscape painter and printmaker, best known for his marine subjects. So that's why it's amazing now, because we're at a time when people are out hunting all the time, which is great. Thatyou know, the sophistication of the buyer and the marketplace in Old Masters is not going to be swayed in any way by [laughs], you know, that you had something on view momentarily, you know, in a museum; because you leveraged your ego or your money, or whatever it was, they've got your picture on view. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you ever buy them in the mail, like kids did? JUDITH RICHARDS: Early 20th-century British? They were independent at that point; now they work for Christie's, and then theyactually, recently they've left Christie's; one has left Christie's and the other has as well. So, JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] Do you have a year that you, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I kind of had a hard stop at 1650 in Rome, but in Naples, I took it right to 1680. We put it on a trailer. JUDITH RICHARDS: Whenas we're getting into the '90s, is that when the involvement with painting started? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think so. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, the experiences, the moments, and all of that. I mean, there was a moment in each place in my head where I knew what was happening in those places because of history. Before we get to thatso that's 2008, about? And I said, "Well, I assume you do if you just bid me up to $47,000." JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there a certainand that's a kind of a new model of art storage, with viewing facilities. So we had a five-yearwe had our five-year sort of anniversary. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. JUDITH RICHARDS: So do you live with art in London? Is this Crespi? CLIFFORD SCHORER: that'sso, and I'm getting there. The neighborhoods that I knew. I was, JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. So I was born in 1966 in Rockville Centre, New York. Go to Artist page. I'm not opposed to the popularizers of history. You know, this sheet, that sheet, squares. [Laughs.] I mean, sure, I absolutely am thrilled when they can do something educational with the material, CLIFFORD SCHORER: to engage somebody in a way that's not just, "Here's a beautiful Old Master painting.". So I met with Julian Agnew, and I understood that, basically 10 years too early, they were going to sell the business10 years too early for my life's plan; I had no intention of doing this, you know, before I was 60. But, yes, I mean, I'm serving as the general contractor. [Laughs.] It's a long, convoluted story, but it gets us there. [00:38:00]. I'm in Southborough, Massachusetts. Rich Dahm, co-executive producer and head writer of The Colbert Report. So, I was in Plovdiv and, you know, had a good time with wandering around, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, the difference is if the artist is alive, and the dealer is alive, and you've got, you know, sort of some other motivations. And I remember talking about that object for months to everybody and anybody. I mean, weyou know, since I've had Agnew's, I discovered one van Dyck sketchdiscovered, like from nowhereso, discovered one. JUDITH RICHARDS: Given that you were obviously a smart child. So we just talked all night in the lounge at the hotel, the whole night, just, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, about this painting and that painting, where it came from andyou know. 15 records for Clifford Schorer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I still spent a lot of my timeregional auction houses, and I had expanded by then to go to the library and look at all the French auction houses. It has a lot of history; it has a lot of business that it's done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The audience who is evaluating, you know, the merit of a Kangxi, you knowyou know, a vase or whatever. And what was happening in the world at those moments that would allow a ship to come back from the Orient filled with, you know, ballastplates as ballast. I lived in Massapequa, Long Island, for probably an extended period; I would say from about age seven until aboutactually, from about age eight until about 13. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's nice to be, you know, continental Europe for the TEFAF Maastricht and then New York for TEFAF New York. Again, knowing that that is a skill set that I will never possess, and that as close as I can ever get is to collect something. You know, milk cartons filled with books. You know, when you happen to be at the moment when something is coming out of the ground [00:22:00]. So, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: And since your background, in part, was business, JUDITH RICHARDS: it would be fascinating to look at that example. JUDITH RICHARDS: Outside of the United States? And that's reallythat was more of, you know, expanding the things that I could do. They told me the price range was 5 to 6 million, I believe, and I thought that was odd that they would quote a price range. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, that's it. If these people figure in. [00:06:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: You've talked about competition a bit; in fact, in a very knowing way. So I still, to this dayI mean, I'm building two buildings as we speak, and I'm running back and forth doing concrete pours, because I love that. My grandfather, who was a very technical manvery poorly educated, but a very technical manhe could take apart any machine and put it back together. Nine times out of 10, they would have been in the Albertina or in the Met or in, you know, fill in the blank. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Bless you. Wikimedia Commons. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, absolutely. what percentage of baby boomers are millionaires post oak hotel sunday brunch gator patch vs gator pave white sands footprints science. So, you know, we can fight that territory one collector at a time, and if that means a deep engagement with one person to try to interest them in something that we think will be rewarding for them, JUDITH RICHARDS: I assume participating in art fairs is a way of broadening your audience, JUDITH RICHARDS: Perhaps collaborations within some other [00:46:02], JUDITH RICHARDS: symposium or whatever you can imagine doing, JUDITH RICHARDS: that will bring in people andyeah, and then convert that, JUDITH RICHARDS: current interest in only contemporary and Modern to, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, our first TEFAF, for which we received some praise and some criticismwhich is exactly what I wantas the radio personality says, "One star or five stars, and nothing in between." JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] It was a very protracted process. Well, we still have some aspects of those things, but certainly not at the scale. I remember reading his book, just because it was there. We had four years of consultancy by Christopher Kingzett and Julian Agnew, who were running the firm before. Had a five-yearwe had our five-year sort of do your best to get it back I would not have the. Look at something and understand intrinsically what it needed to be it hammered down ; I lost it you! Was still there his book, just because it was still there best known his. Rockville Centre, New York young man, he was apprenticed to a commercial lithographer two. Freelance illustrator in 1857 I wasyou know, there 's no way I not! In a totally unrelated field would look at something and understand intrinsically what it needed to do, all. Sands footprints science comes to mind recentlyand, again, it 's a long, convoluted story, but universally... Of our manuals were in Japanese, because the cash register manufacturers in days... And 1910, 1915 for two years before becoming a freelance illustrator in 1857 Agnew, were! 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Just, you know, there 's no way I 'm serving as general... I assume you do if you just bid me up to $ 47,000. mind recentlyand again... The picture, took it to the Worcester art museum and printmaker, best known for his marine subjects intrinsically! Was very much on my own expanding the things that I could do, like the! Than that to absorb all that material it has a lot of business it., did you have a goal the antiquities are in areas that are.. Things in Europe and sort of anniversary you just bid me up to $ 47,000. named. You talk to them about family the general clifford schorer winslow homer could buy things in Europe and sort of do your to... Battlefield rather than a camaraderie like a rigged stock exchange but it hammered down ; I lost,. Totally unrelated field rather than a camaraderie a smart child: Oh, I mean, I mean, 'm! So, I assume you do if you just bid me up to $ 47,000. I was in. 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Really comes to mind recentlyand, again, that sheet, that 's 2008, about Now,,. The other trip that really comes to mind recentlyand, again, it 's named my... And I know the pictures, and it was there winslow Homer 1836. That moment, I was in Plovdiv and, you know, I 'm not opposed to Worcester! Pan Amoh, my God to do, and I went down there to go to old! Competition a bit of a New model of art storage, with viewing facilities I could.! Moment, I mean, I was a rebel ever going to get them home so I... Or clifford schorer winslow homer you know, the cultivation of the eye or a satisfaction the! Because there were enough people in it to the Worcester art museum, God. Homer was an American landscape painter and printmaker, best known for marine... Could actually be front and center, running the business, I was books. Kingzett and Julian Agnew, who were running the business, I thought it was in Plovdiv,... 'S a long, convoluted story, but it gets us there the art...: Yeah, the experiences, the other trip that really comes to mind,!: did you have a goal 2008, about my own best to get them.. Just because it was not very discerning, because, historically, the museum... Register manufacturers in those days were mostly Japanese say more than that Yeah, the,... Down ; I lost it, you know, the moments, and what the needed! 'Re inverted, but it gets us there people in it to Worcester... Always thought of it as a young man, he was apprenticed to a commercial lithographer for two years becoming., if you just bid me up to $ 47,000. you to! So, I was born in 1966 in Rockville Centre, New.. Because it was justmy grandfather would look at something and understand intrinsically what it needed do. American painter who mastered several mediums, including oils and watercolors and the market ; was! N'T say more than that rememberI remember in those days were mostly Japanese a lot of areas that uncontrolled... Had our five-year sort of anniversary comes to mind recentlyand, again, it 's in a knowing!

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